Episode 5. From Hospo to IT w/Erika Hamilton

Brad kicks off this episode by asking Erika Hamilton about women who work in IT or STEM.  As an Executive Assistant or as Brad puts it, 'Executive of Everything', Erika's background is in business and hospitality. Her original goal of being a hotel general manager didn't quite offer enough control over improving systems and steering the ship.

Listen in for more on how she ended up in the IT space, and some of the stats on women in the STEM industries.

Transcript

Episode 5. From hospo to IT with Erika Hamilton

 [00:00:00] Okay.

We're back for another podcast, an amazing podcast for the invisible skyscrapers 

Brad Bellette CEO 

and Erika Hamilton extraordinaire,

does everything. It doesn't matter What it is she does it. 

Officially known as An executive Assistant, but I would just call an executive everything, really. How are you? 

Very tired being executive everything, but. 

You retired or you're just tired, Tired. 

Well, You have a busy life as well. 

busy life. We're in alice Springs, Hut Six, but we're also in Adelaide. We've got 12 staff now. If Anybody hasn't caught up on that news. 

And in this podcast we're talking about women in it or stem. 

Now I've got to say right up from the front here. 

I Hate, and it may be the SA government's the same, but the NT government [00:01:00] decided to make STEM, STEAM 

the only thing they did was for me was put steam coming out of my ears,

Because in what world does a mathematician get along with Somebody who's creative. And nothing gets creative people because I've been in the creative industry a Long time. 

But it's just not the same. Would you agree, Erika? 

Yeah, I agree. And I get it like people who work in UX and design and Feature design infrastructure. You could group under that, but I don't think they should be Included. 

I think they should both be valued the same. I don't like it when you know, science or maths is compulsory till year 12. But English and art, isn't 

Because I think that they both serve a very important purpose. So You can't just pick one that's better than the other. But I think. yeah, 

Yeah. 

I suppose the other thing I would say, why is one got more value than the other? 

Correct? Yup. 

I don't 

see that being a free thinker, and I was explaining this to my son freddie yesterday. He was saying he wasn't very creative. And what I said to him was creative means A whole range of things, me personally, I'm not a [00:02:00] creative artist, but I am a creative person a free thinker. 

And I was explaining to him, he's turning 11 this year, and he was a bit down On himself about being a bit creative. And not being the tech person that he'd like But explain That that Technis can come in all different 

Yeah and I think learning to be a critical thinker or lateral thinker. There's no subject for that. You can't study that At school, like any learn that you do learn that in stem subjects. But again, I didn't do science, Tech engineering and math to year 12. I went to public school. 

So really wasn't much choice in that department. I didn't do any. of that to year 12. And I think I'm pretty good. At it. So. 

There's no class for it.

I think those subjects, every, this yin and yang It's how it's 

Now You did this to me once when we were doing a presentation. I got started really enthusiastically. And then you went, whoa, big boy. 

Can you introduce yourself?

before we get too much further into this chat today, 

Yeah, 

So yeah, my name's Eric Hamilton. I've worked for Brad for almost three years now. So I started working for Brad with his marketing agency Bellette. As his executive [00:03:00] assistant cause he had some things change in his family and he needed someone to help him steer the ship through all of that. 

So I did that for about a year and I wanted to move into the marketing space and then I found Hut Six, way more interesting. 

And there was just 

what's your background. 

My background before, the life before Brad. 

I grew up in Alice springs so I went to school here up until year 12 and when I left school, I went to Adelaide and I wanted to be a hotel general manager.

And I went to the international college of hotel management and did a bachelor of business Majoring in hospitality management and yeah, it maintained a 6.0 GPA through the whole way and worked in five star resorts 

then I wanted to get out of that because as I met more GMs, I learned that as a GM, you don't really get to have much control say over kind of what happens. 

Like I really like, I really like hotels because I really like systems and hotels all about that and I couldn't get into the army. So the plan B. 

was that, [00:04:00] was that a psychological thing? 

No, 

I'm hoping it's not. 

So yeah, when I met more GMs, I like, we're really just Ops Managers and they get pushed down from boards. They get pushed down from owner groups and they get pushed down from franchises. 

It's 

It's really not the same anymore Isn't it. 

Since chains have become predominantly the 

only way to be in it 

And then I was like, well, if I want to make change in hotels, I need to be on boards and I need to leave to then come back in later. So My thinking was I'd work in marketing and brand and then come back into a board specializing in that. 

But now I work for Hut Six I still. would like to come in to work in hotel boards when I'm ancient, 

Well I would, I would say I I would say boards in general. I think you'd be a very good board member. 

a very contributing board member because That's the problem with Most boards having sat on a couple,

is that as I call them scone munches, 

people who turn up to raise their hand in the air, just to get the free scones. And I've got to say, that's my pet peeve.

I don't like being on a board when you have [00:05:00] three-quarters of your board, who don't contribute. You know, when one or two people are vocal and everyone kind of sits there and looks at the looks at their feet because they feel uncomfortable. 

But it's not a collective, there's not a direction it's just a couple of people who want their voice to be heard and then you don't, you don't achieve a lot. 

which I definitely think is me. And I always, whenever I'd like to talk about my job, I always say, Brad, that you're always telling to me, Erika, when will we ever be happy? And I always say never because I'm always changing things but I always think once I'm happy with the systems and the processes then that's it. 

That's all I can do. 

And then I'll move on. 

That's always me.

It's yeah. Yeah. And the same thing has been Leveled at me and I've always felt bad about being that way, but you know I actually think it's a good thing.

Personally.

I actually like the idea of the sand never being solid, I like the idea of continuous change. 

I like the idea of there's always a better way. 

I don't like the idea of going well, we found a better way let's just leave it at that. 

I think those times have gone a long, long time ago.

I think [00:06:00] so, too and I think when you see people, 

I'm sorry. I'm really passionate about customer service, which is also why I loved

five star hotels, because it's just like next level. 

And I think if you still got clients or customers who have who've got problems, if you've got, internal team members who are also your customers, having problems with any systems or what's happening. 

You should change that. 

Not just because you did a whole Strategic Rethink last year, and then that's enough. 

If people are unhappy, like things should be changed. 

it's an interesting concept. 

I'll ask you about how you found yourself working in this space. 

But it's an interesting concept. I run across business all the time and organisations Who think that writing this stuff down is the the, that's what you do.

And then once you've done that, you're good. 

But, you know, nine times out of 10 as you and I have both seen that never gets revisited that goes in the bottom of a drawer and then people go, I don't know what to do. 

And I think that acceptance constantly.

The iteration idea you know, like I look at what we do in Hut six, and we're always [00:07:00] iterating and changing, and we're always doing that for customers.

And that's actually started to make me think that's how you've just got to keep doing it. 

You know, you sort of set up, a, set up a thing that you do it fails or it succeeds, and then you move on from that. 

Do you find that a challenge? or do you, do you like referring Back to your last 

I like it, I think coming back to what you said I still really like writing things down. 

I mean, like, I love process, So I'm all about that sort of thing. but as far as like strategic change and organizational shift, and whatever, I think you do need to write. down like your pillars, your mission, Your values, so that you've kind of got that as your your reference point. 

Like That's your homing device. 

So that when people in the team come and say, well, we should be doing, X, y and Z, I always then go back. 

I'm like, okay, well, these are our pillars and these are The statements we want to achieve? Does that align with that? No, it doesn't. 

Okay. Do we need to, 

Oh, then you say to me. Can you stop changing your mind? 

Yeah. 

So It's do we need to revisit the strategic pillars and change them? Or do we need to maybe park that idea and revisit it later? [00:08:00] or you know, 

and you need to have a guiding light otherwise. 

you do I suppose suppose the point I was trying to make is like a lot of those things 

excuse me just end up in the bottom drawer and never get 

at again

I if your mission, vision and values are written well, that seen first in your culture, so you can see your team, executing them and then that then gets executed with your clients 

And then that lives in your drawer, But it needs to actually actively be adapted by the team. 

So I know that you've said that in the past, and everybody listening Erika does, like tech and has played around with it for a very long time. 

Did you ever see yourself, Considering that you're going to be in a hotel manager, did you see yourself doing what you're doing right now on the cutting edge of technology? 

Because we are Hut six, does some really cool stuff? 

No. I never did and I'm 25 this year, so. I am a young person, but I I was kind of born too early for this kind of coding in schools and all this other sort of stuff.

So it was [00:09:00] never like as if I think if things are different, maybe I would have gone into, 

will you kind of born on the cusp of the internet now? The proper adoption on the internet, which was 97, 98. Yeah. 

97. Yeah. 

So I think like maybe things have be different, but yeah, like when I was 12 or 13, like we had a cousin stay with us and we pulled a pot, up like my parents' old computer and put that all back together again.

And then I didn't have a lot of friends in high school, so I got really into tumbler and would change the source code for my 

my, HTML tumblr sites to make things, talk to each other and have a blinking cursor and music. And it was just really cringe. And 

then, when I, 

and 

then when I finished school, I worked at Congress on gap road central Australian average with Congress and the pharmacy, and set up a FTP server to run the automated packing machine.

So I did that for six months. 

But none of that, I didn't thought that I was doing anything in tech. It was just like, 

I'm bored and want to do something cause I was grew up here so there's not really much to do when you're a teenager. 

And [00:10:00] then when I was at Congress, I was just like, well, this is something that can literally change people's lives.

Let's set it up and so I did it and it was great for the six months I worked there. 

and it was 

And it's interesting too, because for me personally, I mean, I've, we've got some developers here, similar age to me, but I never had access to tech. But I love the tech space. Absolutely love it. 

And 

I've always been really confident with tech Like I've always been, I mean, so for my iCloud debacle at the start of the year, but 

but I've always been really confident and 

I do believe people, young people, my age, like it should just work and I think we were the start of, well, just Google it and the amount of things at work when people ask me things, I'm like, you could have just Googled this, I Googled it and then sent you the link, that was the end. 

Let me google that for you 

Let me google that for you 

So I think, yeah, but I never saw tech as a career path like I finished school at a public school and we didn't have any of those classes 

I grew up in Alice Springs. 

And I would say the only tech path that I ever really knew, which completely bored me out of my [00:11:00] brains was systems operations.

Now the idea of networking and IP addresses and stuff. Yeah. 

Well, I'd rather slit my wrists completely uninteresting. 

Yeah. 

Yeah and especially like working in product, or whatever it is I do now is a role that didn't ever exist. When I was at school, it wasn't mainstream enough to be considered.

part 

I kind of, I look at what we're doing now, and it's a bit like the Victorian age of industrialism we're on that verge of the cotton mills and, and what we're doing is kind of people look back 50 years ago and 

Even though it's been around for a long time. That was truly the beginning of the post COVID Victorian idea of industrialization of I T.

Yeah. That's what I sort of see and this idea of the cloud we keep talking about. Yeah. So do you feel like an imposter? 

I definitely did 

probably up until about 12 months ago. I think my attitude towards Work at Hut Six and work in this space definitely shifted when we went to Adelaide last October.

 [00:12:00] Brad kind of brought me into the fold of being an active contributor to the strategic part of change of the business, which was really great and exciting. Brought back my stress acne. 

But it's been really, really good, but up until that point yeah, I did because I went to hotel management school.

I was still I have bachelor of business, so I still did revenue management and HR and marketing. 

but 

I did courses about changing bedsheets and five star standards. Like I can tell you all of the five star standards, for an Australian hotel to be at that level, 

Lot Fourteen made a big difference, hasn't it 

But yeah, and especially like lot 14 and meeting other people.

I think in the Australian tech space, a lot of people are not from a tech background, 

which I has been really helpful because a lot of the stuff I was consuming before we got into lot 14 at the start of the year it was all American, like states based. 

And ecosystem is so much more mature what, by like 20 30 years 

that now is a lot of people have gone to uni and studied product, or they've studied engineering And then go into product or, you know, [00:13:00] 

So there's not this whole like yep i, you know, used to work shift work at a hotel in Tasmania, and now I work for Brad on like massive customer 

Yeah And for everybody listening that might be in the NT lot 14 or anywhere else, lot 14 is a tech hub in south Australia. 

It's on the old Royal Adelaide hospital base and it is pretty much has become in a very short amount of space at Silicon valley of Australia, NASA, Google, Amazon, all that machine learning type stuff.

All the startups in Australia are all heading towards there and hut six was very lucky to get a space in there and the big thanks to either. 

And what that's done is what Erika is alluding to, even for myself, who felt a bit like an imposter as well in this space that we were just dabbling around the edges.

It's solidified that idea of what we're doing as being legitimate, because we are mixing with the big boys and big girls. 

And we are very legitimate and the response we've had At lot 14 and within south Australia itself has actually [00:14:00] provided that sense of not feeling like an imposter. 

So I can completely concur with you on this space.

Up until that point, I absolutely felt like what we were doing was second best 

Yeah Absolutely. 

But now 

I know it's, it's cutting edge. It's best practice. Our team is best practice. They are of the high standard. 

And not that I didn't think that before, but it certainly made me feel exactly we're doing the right direction and doing the right thing 

Yeah. Yeah And I always, whenever people ask me about like you I always say 

you're so like when people, whenever I've talking to people just by myself, and I were allude to Brad our CEO and they ask about you and I'm like, okay, well, Brad, I mean, it's Brad's birthday today. 

I'm like, Brad is you know, in his fifties he's a white guy. He's from the country, but I'm like, I swear he's different, because he hasn't got he's head off his ass like Elon Musk does ha ha ha ha ha haha. 

he's still knows that he has so much more to learn and he's not the expert in the room, which I think sets you apart from other people which 

has maybe contributed to your own imposter syndrome 

Well, it's also probably my insecurities well that 

But I [00:15:00] look, I've come to accept that.

Now you're in this role, you've been at lot 14, you're talking to product owners, your, you know, mixing on slack channel, you're doing all these great things meeting. 

Are there gaps, are the gaps for you for women in these roles?

What do you mean? 

Well, as in, you know, we've talked about, you know, it can be a very toxic environment with having so many men in it. 

 A lot of the soft skills aren't there when you're talking with a lot of developers and stuff. 

Where do you see women coming into the space and how can we get more women into stem?

Well I mean you know, in the, up until the seventies Women held 70% of jobs in the it space because it was considered administrative, low hanging fruit work. 

And it wasn't until the eighties and the boom of that in the states that it was considered a high value role in it. Like then women got put back in the home and all that sort of stuff.

So that's kind of the path that it was on. 

I think, yeah, women should be in every room and should be at every table and, you know, women should be paid to sit at that table. 

So [00:16:00] I think having limited diversity in both gender and race, sexuality background is a massive loss because you can't, how do you build a product that fits, 

you know, a target group, if you aren't actually including them in the build.

And that's something that we have at Hut Six as well. 

It's hard for us to, I think as long as I've worked here, we've had three women apply for an engineering role um and it's we can't hire anyone indigenous because the platforms there for, indigenous people to actually be upskilled in this space aren't there as well. 

So it's something that we I can completely acknowledge that we need to do better on 

We are working towards because it's really systemic change and it's also men need to be involved in it too and, you know, since lot fourteen and stuff I'm a member of her tech path out of lot 14, which is really excellent and women in product, out of the states, which is a really, really great resource 

but I just hate women's [00:17:00] participation and women's issues in quotation marks being women's problems it actually affects everyone. 

You know, the GDP of Australia would rise by 9% if women could have access to employment through subsidized childcare, like just doing that 

Yep. And when you look at matriculation results, women score higher than guys, 

they do it in science and maths, but that doesn't translate back into this space.

No and I think a lot of it comes from men not asking why aren't there more, know, insert, you know, minority group here. 

Why aren't there more in the room and how do we get more of them there, 

all the value of that different point of 

and the value of the different point of view, I think is, is massive.

And I think back to, you know, since probably the last 12 months, I've been pretty actively involved in the products we develop and I think about the products that I've been a part of and for me The skills that I bring to the table and for my intuition, 

you know, it happened yesterday,

and me saying, I really am really nervous about where this is going to go.[00:18:00] 

We need to take a step back and we need to pull apart, we need to make a plan and we need to get the client on board with that. 

And in the past, when I haven't been involved in, it has been an all male team you guys have just kind of kept going and things haven't gone, great. 

So I think the skills women can bring and also just the vulnerability, because, I try and do that when we meet as, cause we meet every day for various agile ceremonies and the vulnerability of me feeling confident to say, I don't know the answer to that, or I need help with this or no, I actually do know the answer to that you need to ask me, 

Do you think it improves men to have that in that space?

Yeah. 

Women at the table improve everyone's lives. 

There is no situation that doesn't and it's just, but it's just recognizing that 

and recognizing that you have value and, 

You know, I struggled a lot when I started working for you and when I was started working for you, I worked primarily for bullet the marketing agency, but I still sat with the engineering pod.

And it probably took about 12 to 18 months to correct feel accepted and I wasn't even directly working with them. 

I [00:19:00] think a lot of people who work in that you know, engineering space there is You know, risk and sharing in that scarcity mindset and That's a very broad generalization. 

But yeah, I think it's just being kind of open. 

I don't really 

Do you know? No, I was just going to jump on that and just say, do you think in a, how, like in New Zealand they have identified nationalities and minorities and stuff that have to be in politics. 

Yeah.

Quotas, that's sort of the word I was looking for. 

I was thinking, just thinking about what you've just said more than just a quota, that, that part of what we need to do is actually like your strategic plan is have a strategic plan across the workforce that says we will have X by X, by X, because at the moment there is no plan.

There is no plan at all to say, that's what we, there's this idea and all us fellows stand around and slap each other on the back and going great, you know, we're looking out for the women.

But there's no plan. There's no plan to say we will have X amount of people in this [00:20:00] space that you know, I hope this female by 20 28 

Yeah, well cause to do that, you have to topple the patriarchy, like you have to. 

you know, And 

And 

it's you know, I was reading last night and it's like the primary goal for a woman, especially a mother which I'm not, but that this woman was talking about that is to be selfless, like a woman's goal is to be seen as selfless.

And, you know, I went on a rant last week about how so much like VC funding and grant funding for female founders are all ideas that, you know, support the UN sustainability development goals.

Will they solve a problem or whatever they can't just want to make cold, hard cash and buy an island and have a trophy husband just all these other male entrepreneurs do, 

Cause they're they're just in it for the cash women have to be in there and trying to solve the problem because it's the core goal of a woman in a patriarchal society is to be selfless.

Like you are the model woman and you are selfless and if you 

Aren't selfless then you're like me, you're angry. You express your emotions. [00:21:00] You are confident in your body diet culture doesn't effect you. You aren't distracted, you aren't hungry. 

And because you're not hungry, you're asking questions and you're really annoyed.

we can't have participation if we're not comfortable with that. 

Because again, you have to go into childcare access. You have to go into unpaid domestic labor and the division of that, we get a 

all the jobs that are considered acceptable in that. 

I think it's childcare nursing, teaching it all fits within the realms of like, still on being able to be a mum and, you know, thanks.

And it was pointed at me the other day. 

There's somebody who's very close to me that women give up their exercise time and their time to make sure that their men in their lives actually get their exercise time in there and it was pointed out to me, quite strongly about 

I'm into BMX, as some might know 

about how I get to do that three times a week 

And the other person in my life, it doesn't because, and 

selfless Cause that's the goal. 

If the 

And I was like oh okay, I thought, we're on [00:22:00] the same page with this, but, but I didn't feel bad about it.

In the sense that it was being pointed out to me, I just went, oh, well, I completely I've looked at, I hadn't even thought of it 

yeah because you don't have to think like You don't have to have those thoughts. 

it's just not there Uh 

It's okay for a guy to be ruthless, it's ok for a guy to be abrupt, brusque.. 

But they're all considered traits that in society, in ScoMos world that are not things that I, as a woman, you 

And I always say like the best marketing effort is the fact that men have been able to rebrand anger as non-emotional that's not an emotion to be angry.

Because men aren't emotional. But women are emotional and they're hysteric when they're angry. 

but men, when they're angry, they're just men it's not an emotional 

Yeah. And, and I would say that sort of probably stemmed from probably going back as far as the second world war, when we had this thing called the silent generation.

And essentially what they're referring to is men who drank themselves into the corner, went home, beat their wives up because they had PTSD 

and didn't talk, you know, but it's been put on this label [00:23:00] now where it's a silent generation, you know, they're stoic and they're all these things in actual fact. They were dysfunctional..

Yeah. And 

Be truthful. 

Yeah. And it's the same as, you know, like suicides, the biggest killer is the biggest killer for men worldwide, except for in Afghanistan and, you know, 

the patriarchy it hurts women, like it, kills us every week. 

But it hurts men as well and it goes both ways and I think it's just like women's participation in problems. Isn't a woman's problem. It's 

human problems Like it's a success for the human race 

 So

what do you [00:24:00] think the best way? And I mean, globally, what do you think the best ways for us as individuals and as companies and organizations to change all of that? 

I think quotas, I am a fan of quotas. A lot of people don't like it because it's well, it should just be like that anyway.

And it's yeah, well, shoulda woulda coulda It's not. 

I think quotas work, I think many men get jobs and keep jobs that they shouldn't they wouldn't have actually gotten.

if they didn't know someone or they didn't have a long-term relationship or whatever it is that got them there, completely 

incorrect that every man when they roll by merit and you can still win your role by merit and have a quota a role 

that, 

oh, I, I I'm I'm on the same page as you, I think boards should have quotas.

Yeah, I think, it makes sense from, a, 

From a functional perspective too, because if you're, you know, if you're a board serving people with a certain disability, it makes sense to have a percentage of your board to make up of people who have that disability.

You know, [00:25:00] or if you're looking I've got a board that looks after like country education, half that boards should be from the country, you know, and that should be like your baseline requirement because how can you then make decisions that better impact the actual people you're serving?

Because, when you're in a board role, it's, it's servant leadership. 

Like you are trying to make the outcomes better for the people in the group And it's not about your ego or your LinkedIn or your whatever. 

It's about those people, so they should align.

Just how you've got quotas on who would you know, get those grants in that situation.

So I think that's really important. I think definitely having

male allies is really important and people who will back you.

I've worked places in pretty, much everywhere I've worked been male dominated, and where the men have not been allies when things have kind of gone pear shape and what I've been, you know, part of harassment and whatever else.

So I think you're a really good ally. 

I think that's really important because and to have someone there to say, 

No, [00:26:00] she's right, we're doing it that way. Don't argue with me. 

I think that's always really have. 

And from my perspective it's funny when I talk to other men and they'll say comments about the bellette team is all female, for example.

And they'll say, well, how do you go with that? And there's a really disparaging comment, or it must be great to be with such a good looking team. 

Now for me, I don't even see that.

It's, it's a funny thing, but I'm like, oh, well, they just and they've got a job to do, and if they don't do the job, they get fired in a really, really brutal way.

They get to sit on one of my more orange chairs, 

but I find that really interesting that men seem to have, seem to think they had the right and it's, you've worked in a hospo and you've seen this ,to see you as an object to see you as something to fantasize over 

or that you you're being nice to someone all of a sudden you're given them the goo goo eyes. 

that I just find that I've never been able to understand it, you know, 

because we're objectified. 

It that's exactly it. 

I don't want to try to be all PC here and be the the, you know, the top [00:27:00] male that's in this space, but I've always struggled with it. 

And I don't know whether it's cause I've got sisters.

And I had a very strong mum. 

or you actually respect women in general not because they're related to you 

exactly, um that too, but I don't know, I just sort of see that and go, I don't get you. I don't get why you're saying this. 

Well it's because women are objects of desire to obtain. 

Which is why, I like, we, we have violence inflicted upon us and it's like you do as a woman, you do become a part of your own demise.

Like I remember when I've worked in hospitality establishments, where that's been quite common and I've made you know, double 

my weekly salary in tips, and of this is in Australia. So 

Maybe you're telling me about 

you know, 

cause you played the 

I was 

very tired, but yeah, it was great.

And I've also been on the other hand when you are getting harassed everyday at work, by other coworkers and managers and customers. 

And I'm just trying to show up and work minimum wage and just try and keep my life together. Can you just leave me [00:28:00] alone? 

So I think quotas is a really big thing.

I think men supporting Women, when you see women in a meeting being spoken over make sure that they get to say their bit support their idea, listen to their idea, and then make sure that they get paid, make sure that they're getting paid, what they're worth. They're getting promoted when they need to be.

That's like the biggest thing. 

because 

I was actually having this conversation with a female GM yesterday. And I should just say a GM, not a female GM, but I actually pose the question to her and said, do you think you would get paid more if you were a bloke?. 

Yes, she would. And she would also get an assistant and all this other stuff That's not out of the box 

No, no. And, and particularly if she, if he was a single dad, 

but being a single mom, there's just no 

there's 

no 

or support or 

you're selfless. 

No. 

that's right. And, you know, and look reflecting on that. I looked at the salary and I said, straight up to her, you should be on 10 grand, more a year 

minimum for. 

Yeah So I think that's 

like a [00:29:00] big part listening, asking questions and yeah.

Being part of that. And then knowing that like you are an ally 

and B you also have to listen back the other way so you don't become someone like our prime minister, Tony Abbott 

who made himself minister for women? 

Oh, I, I do think, I do think religion is going to be part of that, that whole idea, but we won't get into that right now.

So in terms of where you're at right now do you, with your experiences within lot 14? Does it give you hope? 

yeah. Yeah, kind of. I feel like, I mean, 

I feel more hopeful. 

 know, I'm, I'm not you 

Just seeing those things happening down there and the 

women we've met. 

Yeah and, you know, I would, I love to be in a world where like the majority of our meetings down there are with women and not with men.

Cause it's still is 80% men, 20% women and yeah, that's, that's still the way it is same as it is when we're in the territory, talking to people. I'd love for that to be swapped. 

[00:30:00] So I think it's changing in that there's now a like acceptable career paths into that space 

and there's more options than being an engineer.

I think that's definitely changing. 

But I don't think that the acceptance and tolerance of women in those spaces is has changed at all. 

Well, the men could just be like goods and chatel I can just be the word And the women get to do the real work. 

that's the future, 

Yeah but robot work is still real work, 

what I mean, they just sit there and chained to the machine slapping the keyboard.

I mean I probably shouldn't say this. 

but women want to do that work too. 

 I think it's definitely changing a lot, I think. 

Yeah, I think it's time that it's men's problem to too solve. 

Same as I feel towards domestic violence and childcare access. 

and it should be a part of the business plan 

know what I mean? You're like, you know, when the government you know, all governments, state governments have business innovation funds and they have business startup funds and all these other things personally, and same as VCs personally, I think within that process, they should be that content should [00:31:00] be there.

That should be that idea of metrics should be there. 

So the government says to you as a, as a business, okay. Right, this is what we're going to give you, this is how we're going to help you. 

But this is what you have to do, these are the KPIs you have. Too, and same for VCs. 

I mean, I feel as though that VCs themselves angel investors and whatever else could influence this space.

well yeah. I mean, in the states, like 10% of VC funding goes to female businesses or ideas. 

But again, I would like, yeah, metrics and stuff is a really good start to that, but it's like, how do you even get to that idea stage? And is that actual idea of entrepreneurship and fostered in women?

Because I feel like it personally wasn't for me, You've remarked that I am. 

But, I've just never, ever crossed my mind that I could have an idea and then make something like as my own thing. 

even that, even that word entrepreneurs become an okay thing. Now I would totally agree with you. It's not being an entrepreneur business owner, whatever you want to call it.

But an entrepreneur as a woman is not something I ever get seen or gets talked 

[00:32:00] no And it's not something that you S that is aspired to, or they're co-founding with a partner, 

Like that's usually it. 

it's usually, you know, Melanie Perkins founded Canva with her boyfriend now husband And it's always that they've got someone There as well.

There's no there's not so much a solo founder until you have someone like Elizabeth Holmes who had thoroughness and people now, women, when they go for VC funding, if they are blonde, they've get asked to dye their hair to have better luck at those pitches. 

And that's, that's true because Kate, very much part of big, big part of my life.

She, when she moved to the territory, she dyed her hair red because she was blonde. Because she wanted to be taken seriously. She got sick of the blonde jokes.

Okay. How can and we'll put people here slash women change careers and come in to this space. 

What can companies like Hut six do? 

Well, I came into, it by accident 

and I kind of just bullied my way through it because what I'm doing now, I mean, my formal side title is still executive assistant, but what I'm doing [00:33:00] now, I just was just like, well, Brad, isn't very good at that.

So I'll just start doing that and then he's also not really good at that. So I'll just do that and then it's just kind of become this this beast 

over the last three years, 

but you've let me do that 

And I would, I'd also say that some of that too is also stereotypical of me as a bloke, because I've just let you take that.

What I saw as the stuff I couldn't do as menial. 

But I've also come to realize too that I don't feel that way about it now. I feel as though you augment my superpower and I augment yours. 

Yeah and I think when I started working for you, I was at rock bottom in my life.

 I was just like, well, I don't really care because my life is not what it should be and I don't really care if I get fired. 

because I'm just going to leave 

because 

and then you get someone like me who couldn't make a decision 

and I was just going to run away and that's what I've been really good at 

Uhm running away and then the world locked down and I couldn't run away anywhere and I had to stay.

So that kind of helped me start because I didn't [00:34:00] really care about annoying anyone, because I didn't really care about my job, to start with but now I do. 

So 

is how can we get women to change careers to consider this as a career 

 So back to the main thing, I think it's hard because a role, I think you know, job ads and stuff, not being super clear, not 

Changing your prerequisites because you know, women will apply for jobs if they meet 80% of the criteria where men will apply at the meet 20%. 

So, I would not have applied for this job because I wouldn't have met 80%. I wouldn't. 

And still now, when I see Like in the groups, I'm in, who post job ads

and I'll go, oh, I'll look at them to see if I can do that and I'm like, oh God, I could never, ever do that. 

And I'm like, i, I could do that. 

But I still personally think I couldn't do that. 

So there's a lot of inherent bias to it. Which I think, I don't know how you change unconscious bias because that's within someone themselves, 

I suppose it's no different to what? With Kirsty really who's [00:35:00] our senior business analyst here at Hut six, is a journalist.? 

And it's because of yours and my idea of that sense of empathy, those writing skills, those interviewing skills would be perfect, but traditionally there's no way she would be considered for that role 

And I think as an internal company, I think it's important for those women, like what we've done with Kirsty and maybe what you've done with me unconsciously, is to push them into that role where they feel like they're uncomfortable and they can't do it.

But, obviously narrowing that tight rope, instead of like you not literally throwing someone off the deep end, it is, there's still a balancing act of going, 

"I think you could have a go of that", and whether it's in a product role, which is what I kind of do or engineering or whatever, and going you know, Give this bug, fix a, go give this new feature and go, and this is assistance we have to support you. This is, you know, and that will support you 30% of the way 30% of the way you're going to have to figure out.

And then We'll check back with you the next day about how you go or whatever. 

That's worked well internally, but as far as attracting new talent in that's really [00:36:00] hard because you're trying to get women to apply for things they don't feel like they can do or jobs that don't even know like product owner. 

If that's a job, 

is 

who actually knows, but even if 

you are an engineer or you're working in that space, you know, you might have a geology degree and you go to be a geologist, but working for one mining company is different from another mining company to working for, a land council or a conservationist, 

 What you've learned at uni, or if you haven't gone to a uni your life experience, that doesn't necessarily mean your job wherever you work there's going to be exactly like 

that.

Maybe it comes back to uni and high school being like, you know, I did a bachelor of business and I have friends from uni who ask me, do you regret going to ICHM because you paid an exorbitant amount of money for a degree and you don't even work in hospitality anymore. 

And I was like, no, Cause I use my degree every day.

There's always bits of my degree I use, even like a couple weeks ago, I had to calculate rev par which is revenue per available room 

For a hospital project, because that was the best metric to use I [00:37:00] learned that at hospitality college. 

 I haven't really answered your question here, but I think 

I suppose this broader question is, I mean, it's like you just touched on before about land councils and anthropologists.

I see them as a natural fit for business analyst because it's a study of people. 

Absolutely. But in a concrete environment, I am really big fan of mentors and having people who will kind of push you where you need to be pushed and then kind of help you when you need help. And that's always been a big part of my professional life and getting to where I am, and that kind of comes from me feeling like I don't know everything.

I do think as an industry is repurposing people to look at those I mean, I like a teacher, a teacher would be perfect.

When you roll out a system, your implementation you've got training and all those things. So a teacher who's had enough of classroom teaching would be perfect to come into that role. 

A person who's an anthropologist or a journalist would be perfect in the business analysts role.

I think repurposing the people, that's what IT doesn't do. We pigeonhole. 

Yeah. Every one's gotta be [00:38:00] pigeonholed and into their certain box. 

You're not kind of looking at their other skills that they have to offer and you're not, kind of having those conversations. 

 I think that's how you would do it internally, but externally, I really don't know.

I think 

programs like her tech path and all these other kinds of stem in schools and all that sort of mentoring and uni stuff to kind of get out the other side. 

 If you could meet someone in that space, who can then refer you onto a job and, and that's a great way to do it. But again, if you have women in those jobs in the first place you can't get referred on anyway 

Right 

And, there's natural predisposition to say that. And I, I hear this all the time. The sporting club I'm involved in with BMX. We have an all female board apart from myself, and I hear this thing where women will say, I'm not good with IT.

Say it straight up, "It's not my thing, I can't do it".". 

And obviously as the industry we haven't done a good enough job if that's what people have to say, if that's where they go, the first thing out of the back is there's not this permission to have a crack, whereas men can tinker. 

That's what men do.

Yeah and on that mean it's a bit different from, from this but 

I'd always annoys me because [00:39:00] I'm 25. 

People always go oh well you're a young person, you grew up with technology, okay so I was born in 1997. I didn't first use a computer till I was probably 10. 

But computers have been mainstream since the seventies, and eighties And so it's actually public servants and people like my parents have had more time with computers than I have, but the culture hasn't been there for them to feel like they can play and break, 

whereas 

for my generation and your son is 14 we're fine to play and break cause we can Google it and we can figure it out and then we can fix it and we can go back to, or there's a forum or, you know, it's on Reddit or you can call a friend.

Whereas the IT industry just created this whole fear that it's this, you know, really complicated DaVinci code thing to use the Commonwealth 64 and if you break it, like no one can fix it and like it's very expensive, whereas the whole sectors just change. 

So you can try and have a crack.

I do think women are still discouraged from risk-taking and practice I 

Yeah. Tinkering having a crack. There's very much this Harry Potter view of it, 

the [00:40:00] dark art. 

Yeah, absolutely. So I think yeah, I dunno 

and 

you're right mobile phones have made a massive difference in that space of tinkering and downloading and having a look.

But I still think inherently it is pushback on women to say, well, you know, you're not as bright as mean, or you can't do this, even though the scientists that wrote their programs to go to the moon were women, you know? 

Yeah and I think definitely the ability to be like curious and to, to kind of not know.

And, because I think stereotypically women are seen you've got to be, I mean, I feel this at work. You've got to be the strong one, you hold the ship together while things are being chaotic 

and you always see those, celebrities like Hugh Jackman and sting say, oh, my wife, we've been together for ages I'm the crazy one off on a tangent and she's holding everything together and she's making sure, you know, and I was like, yeah, of course, because like you gave her no option because you literally over here and who's going to deal with everything else. 

And so it's of course you don't have the [00:41:00] mental space to be creative and curious and think because everything's on fire and you're trying to stop the fire and put it out and prevent it from happening again. 

The big answer in all this is permission, 

massive permission And I think definitely starting schools you know, people's gender bias is set by age three.

So, early childhood and preschool, which of course you're not paid well to work in that space. 

So that is super important and the education and the resources around consent and accessibility 

by the time they're in high school, that should all be nutted down. 

 it's too late. 

So the big question with stem really comes back to early childhood education.

Yeah. It's got to begin there. 

Yeah. It's gotta be there and that's, you know, up until age six, I mean, Kate can K can talk about this till the cows come home up until. 

age six, 

Your brains, like that's massive brain development and your gender roles are set and all this other stuff is set. 

And if you've missed that boat and we see this with indigenous people and other vulnerable people, if you miss that boat, you can never catch up.

It's just, Yeah it's just horrific. 

So it's got [00:42:00] to start then and you've got to have male allies within the workspace. 

You've got to have quotas and you've got to pay them and you've got to support that and whenever that looks like.

I had a lecture at uni who was an executive with mcDonald's, and she said, once you get to a certain salary, an extra 10, 20, 50 doesn't mean anything.

She's like, I had McDonald's as like bonuses for me, were paying for childcare, they were paying for a house cleaner, they were paying for my family holidays, they were buying new laptops for my kids, so they were helping them go to kids school holiday programs or whatever. 

She was like, all that stuff kept me at that company for 30 years. 

And that was the stuff that was really important to me and that stuff you can do when someone is in executive. 

But it'd be great to see that kind of come down the line as well, but also acknowledging that not all women have kids and there's other 

no, no, no. That's right and ways to contribute to society.

And really at the end of the day, it has to start back in early childhood. 

We might wrap it up there I think.

We can talk about this for ages, not to cut you off, but we have to wrap [00:43:00] up this podcast at some point. 

I would love to have you back on and you can host the show next time and you can get a guest in .

If anybody's got any sort of I dunno, comments on what we've talked about today, women in stem disadvantage of being a woman, quotas, all those things 

Jump onto anywhere where this is posted and put a comment we'd love to hear from you because we'd like to contribute to this space 

and it would be really great to influence government policy in this So rather than waiting to high school for this stuff to happen, we actually in early childhood start to make these changes and influences and make parents realize that it is actually a worthwhile career. 

Because that's also part of the other problem too, it's not seeing as worthwhile to go into this space.

 So we might wrap it up there. Anything else want to say? 

 yeah, there's something I'd like to say. 

FACT CHECK: My name is Amy and I'm the editor and guide for producing this show. Um, and I've just been doing the fact-checking for Erika who has been throwing us quite a few stats [00:44:00] throughout this podcast and it seems, upon fact checking almost every stat she mentioned has gotten worse. 

Unfortunately since she has looked at them so we've gone through and each reference is in the podcast notes if you wanted to have a look.

But yes We just thought we'd chuck it in the "it's a little bit interesting and quite disappointing Not a single statistic has gotten better".

We'll leave you with that, thank you for listening

OUTRO: Okay. Well, that's us wrapping up 642 podcast and just make that number up, but invisible skyscrapers. We're not just talking about IT. We're talking about everything. And if anybody wants to get in touch with some ideas for us or if you want to have a chat yourself, please do.